Soda Guy
Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:04:46 PM
Originally Posted by: flamo 

Not a problem. My son is a VP at a company here in TX. The used to employ close to 100 people. Now with the sales force they employ less than 20. They sub all their work to avoid Obamacare and other govt crap. I was curious to see how shows are going to handle it.



Actually Flamo, the company outsourced their work BEFORE Obamacare has taken effect. Because it hasn't yet. My guess is as a VP your son found a way to increase his pay, his bonuses by outsourcing jobs. Hey his choice but to blame Obamacare is not only wrong, but shows that you have such a clouded view of reality it is almost a joke.

Without knowing what indusrty he is in, it is hard to imagine what exact gov. regs you are talking about. My guess is still the reason for the outsourcing is the personal gain of upper management at the expense of the rank and file.
squirrel
Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:30:19 PM
Originally Posted by: flamo 

Not a problem. My son is a VP at a company here in TX. The used to employ close to 100 people. Now with the sales force they employ less than 20. They sub all their work to avoid Obamacare and other govt crap. I was curious to see how shows are going to handle it.



Honestly, the only shows who will be affected so far (to the best of my knowledge) are those with 50 or more employees. Depending on the states, and how shows list their help (such as listing 'sub contractors') and so forth, as well as the 'seasonal' employment concept (some states have a seasonal operation provision that exempts you from things like full blown payroll taxing and workman's compensation insurance) - I don't see it affecting them that much. Now there are some operations that will be hit hard -- especially some of the big boys like NAME, Wade, and a few others. But who's to say that those larger shows don't split their 'operating units' into small companies of 20 employees or less and keep on going. For instance - Wade could split into several companies, and be operated by a 'management company'. Maintenance would be contracted into the 'maintenance company' - fleet and trucks into a 'logistics' company, and so on. Seperate Units would become seperate companies that have 'lease agreements' on equipment for the big spots, and operate independently for the small spots, and so on.

I think that those with the smarts will find the ways to exploit the holes in the numbers quite well. Others will just bite the bullet and make a go of it. There might be wage adjustment to compensate for the health care. I know of one show that when you've been there for more than two years, you can sign a contract with the show, and for the next two years, your wages don't increase, but you get healthcare as part of your payroll, which would exclude them from the fines since they are living up to the laws...

I think there's going to be outcry no matter what, but those who want to make it work will, and those who want to be mad about it will use it as an excuse to blame others for their problems...
flamo
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Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:58:06 PM
Originally Posted by: Soda Guy 

Actually Flamo, the company outsourced their work BEFORE Obamacare has taken effect. Because it hasn't yet. My guess is as a VP your son found a way to increase his pay, his bonuses by outsourcing jobs. Hey his choice but to blame Obamacare is not only wrong, but shows that you have such a clouded view of reality it is almost a joke.

Without knowing what indusrty he is in, it is hard to imagine what exact gov. regs you are talking about. My guess is still the reason for the outsourcing is the personal gain of upper management at the expense of the rank and file.



He is in TX and in the HVAC business. They did experiment with outsourcing just before Obamacare was discussed. They found out a lot of things without affecting the profit line. They found by using independent contractors they avoided tons regulations on both the federal and state levels. Their liability dropped. When Obamacare was was being pushed they went full speed to independents which gives a set known price with no add ons. They keep sales and office people. They also keep a few repair techs. There is very little payroll now so there is a big savings there. Smart business. The regs on HVAC just at the state level are huge. Before dealing with freon there is equipment that has to be purchased and a difficult state license that has to be had. The test is 2 days. Just what they save in the fleet is huge. Instead of 30 trucks they now have 5 tops. Gas @ $3 a gallon for the 30 trucks they had is now gone. This move has not hurt the profit margin, made them very competitive. When work slows down there is no unemployment to worry about and greatly reduced payroll taxes.

I'm there, Old, Tired, Broke and Henpecked
Soda Guy
Sunday, July 1, 2012 2:13:53 PM
Originally Posted by: flamo 

He is in TX and in the HVAC business. They did experiment with outsourcing just before Obamacare was discussed. They found out a lot of things without affecting the profit line. They found by using independent contractors they avoided tons regulations on both the federal and state levels. Their liability dropped. When Obamacare was was being pushed they went full speed to independents which gives a set known price with no add ons. They keep sales and office people. They also keep a few repair techs. There is very little payroll now so there is a big savings there. Smart business. The regs on HVAC just at the state level are huge. Before dealing with freon there is equipment that has to be purchased and a difficult state license that has to be had. The test is 2 days. Just what they save in the fleet is huge. Instead of 30 trucks they now have 5 tops. Gas @ $3 a gallon for the 30 trucks they had is now gone. This move has not hurt the profit margin, made them very competitive. When work slows down there is no unemployment to worry about and greatly reduced payroll taxes.



Having dealt with many HVAC companies across the country it is interesting to see how the states differ on their rules for a license. In Indiana you just take the Fed certificate licence so you can purchase freon, then depending on what City or County you work in the rules are different. Then it also go to is the equipment hard wired or plug into a wall. Again a different license in some counties.

Plus in that field as well as other fields that require people to work with their hands and minds it is getting tougher and tougher to find anyone young that want to put in the years to get proficient at any given blue collar task.

That said, you blamed Obamacare, when state rules and regs seem to be the driving force. Now I understand government BS is government BS but blaming Obamacare on everything is about like the little boy screaming the sky is falling, the sky is falling. After you hear it enough times and it doesn't happen, the warning falls on deaf ears, voting ears. That is what I am trying to get across. Yes if you want a change in the president, then use facts, noit partial facts when making a point and whenever possible do not resort to name calling. I know this has been a tough one for me, but I am working on it.



flamo
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Sunday, July 1, 2012 3:03:11 PM
Originally Posted by: Soda Guy 

Having dealt with many HVAC companies across the country it is interesting to see how the states differ on their rules for a license. In Indiana you just take the Fed certificate licence so you can purchase freon, then depending on what City or County you work in the rules are different. Then it also go to is the equipment hard wired or plug into a wall. Again a different license in some counties.

Plus in that field as well as other fields that require people to work with their hands and minds it is getting tougher and tougher to find anyone young that want to put in the years to get proficient at any given blue collar task.

That said, you blamed Obamacare, when state rules and regs seem to be the driving force. Now I understand government BS is government BS but blaming Obamacare on everything is about like the little boy screaming the sky is falling, the sky is falling. After you hear it enough times and it doesn't happen, the warning falls on deaf ears, voting ears. That is what I am trying to get across. Yes if you want a change in the president, then use facts, noit partial facts when making a point and whenever possible do not resort to name calling. I know this has been a tough one for me, but I am working on it.




Here are a few facts you seemed to have missed. This is just TX. Obamacare is now going to add 2.7 billion more to the budget than we had planning on spending for each of the next 10 years. Basing that number on population you can figure out what your state will have to make up. Where is that money coming from?

National... BHO will hire 16,000 IRS agents (Gestapo) to make sure we comply. This is NOT in the HC budget, comes from general revenue. The average cost per agent for wages, benefits and pension will be about $50,000 a year for eternity. Do the math, now add the support such office, phones, computers ect. So what is enforce going to cost the taxpayer per from now on? Illegals are exempt as they have no SS number to be tracked but they will gain all the benefits. Here's what happened in Canada with their single payer system. Refugees are no longer being covered. To what extent I don't know. So who is next, the old people? The reason, it isn't fair to Canadians.

This according to the AMA. The revised their last report up by 50% on the doctor shortage we have. They project a shortage of 91,000 doctors by 2020. This before Obamacare. I have read the bill. It makes the shortage worse. It affords the doctors no protections, actually the opposite while restricting a doctors ability the earn. There is no Tort reform in Obamacare. How does an OBGYN in FL paying $248,000 in malpractice insurance yearly recover? Reason for the high cost. The govt says that OBGYN is responsible for that child till age 18.

Obamacare is about govt control PERIOD.. The problem with the current system is not about access or cost control. The system is all about 'COST SHIFTING' Simply put, If I don't pay, somebody else will by adding on to their bill. That has never been addressed or for that matter mentioned. Same in Obamacare, infact compounds it. He wants younger people who for the most part who really only need a high deductible policy at best to have HIS full coverage to pay for those who pay nothing into the system. Call it wealth distribution or what ever but it s no more than cost shifting. Remember 'Free contraception'? Nothing is is free, somebody pays. He lied. The Ins cos will comply and just add the cost of that mandate to those with insurance forcing even more out of the system.

I spent 18 months trying to find the causes of the cost rise. It starts in DC with mandates. I have charts and graphs that point it out. Insurance companies are like show owners. They have a spot but to cover that spot they charge the jointee rent. The next year to keep the spot he has to give more to the committee. That increase is passed on. He has to cover his expenses to stay in business. But he also knows if his increases are too high that jointee will drop him like a rock. No different with insurance.

Simplest explanation. Those who abuse the system the most pay the least into it which has to be covered by those who do pay. Remove the free, abuse will slow and costs will drop. I have pages on solutions.

Would you like more facts? Obama, Pelosi and Reid told you all of this, right????

I'm there, Old, Tired, Broke and Henpecked
Bowler Roller
Sunday, July 1, 2012 6:33:26 PM
Quote:

Before dealing with freon there is equipment that has to be purchased and a difficult state license that has to be had



Speaking of costly (environmental) regulations, Freon has been illegal for a long time. That is several accepted coolants ago. You can still buy it for old stuff, but it's been awhile since it could be used for new stuff.

Obummercare hasn't gone into effect yet, but it was quite a passed awhile ago, and companies have had to do quite a bit of reorganizing, in order to survive it.

Take insurance companies and the government out of the health care business, and it will get much cheaper.
Every crowd has a silver lining - PT Barnum
squirrel
Sunday, July 1, 2012 7:02:10 PM
The damned insurance companies are the ones who have really put us in this mess. I am a firm believer in that...

My wife was in the ER about a month ago for chest pains... They ran an EKG, found 'no problems' and prescribed her 10 Xanax for 'stress'... We just got the bill for 900 dollars, and in that bill were two charges for medications that were never administered nor delivered.

The breakdown was as follows:

$5.00 for for a container to take a urine sample
$161.00 for the EKG machine to run on her for 10 minutes.
$17.24 for a drug that was not administered or delivered.
$135.00 for a chemical that is listed as a serum (not administered or delivered)
$584.00 for 45 minutes in the ER...

A f*cking 900.00 ER bill for 45 minutes... Oh, and here were the doctors charges:
$321.00 for a 'moderate' ER visit
$20.00 for 'ECG 12 LEADS INTERPRETATION AND REPORT'...

Now I don't care who or what reasoning there is for this, but there is no excuse for 1200+ dollars for 45 minutes in the ER. NONE...

Especially when so far, I see 2 charges totalling almost 150 in drugs that were not administered. The 10 xanax we had to get at WalMart...

When my mom had to go in last November to have her colon and half of her lower intestine removed, the hospital sent her home with her 'dressings' and 'bandages' and gave her the information she needed to re-order the additional dressings... Her insurance company was billed over $500.00 for just the 'last set' of dressings - which took care of her for 3 days. $500.00 for gauze bandages... Then when she had to get her own, they were going to charge the insurance almost $1000.00 for the next sets - which would have lasted a week. She went online, and found the EXACT dressings, from the same manufacturer, and ordered a month's supply for $159 dollars shipped to her door. A month's supply... Now someone explain to me what the problem is here... Because I can't understand this at all... No wonder the insurance is so f*cking unaffordable... No wonder medical care is out of control... Because these companies have been allowed to run rampant for too long with nobody looking over their shoulder to protect the innocents from the greed... Now, that it is so far out of control that the government feels it has to get in the middle of it, and nobody likes that -- I don't care who you are -- but what else are we supposed to do? Just let it go like it is? In 5 more years, if you're not the 1%, you won't be able to afford *... I can't go to a doctor, because I don't have medical care -- I earn too much as a self-employed contractor to qualify for medical assistance, yet I pay taxes into the medicare and medicaid... But I don't make enough to keep food on my table and pay for healthcare... I tried to get to a doctor because I went through a spell this spring where I started having breathing and allergy problems to the point where it made me really sick... The doctor said they couldn't see me for two weeks, and if I didn't have atleast $150.00 when I walked in the door, not to bother making an appointment... And they were the cheap doctor...

Now you see why I am all for some form of government intervention. These people have been plagued by bullsh*t lawsuits, insurance companies, fraud, and all out greediness... To the point where people who f*cking work for a living can't afford to stay healthy enough to even make it to work... And those are the people who pay into this system of Medicaid and Medicare... But we're the ones who can't get any benefit from it... Instead, we get our wages garnished, and sued when we can't pay the bills...

Thanks...
squirrel
Sunday, July 1, 2012 7:05:42 PM
Oh yeah, and I forgot -- the overall dollar amount that my mom's insurance company was billed (and the bills are not all in yet) is over $250,000... TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS... Billed to the insurance company... Insurance that is part of her payroll package as an administrator in an Indiana school corporation... Insurance that she pays part of on her own, on top of the amount that is taken from her paychecks to provide...

And again, the bills haven't stopped yet. She goes in under the knife on my birthday this fall for followup surgery... I bet this one will be over $150,000... Before it's all over with, she had two choices... Either spend half a million dollars or die...

Thanks...

Dan L.
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Sunday, July 1, 2012 8:00:42 PM
Change you can believe in? How do all of you that voted for Obama feel now? Are you going to vote for him again.

Another four years will change this Country beyond belief.

I really am worried about my business, and what happens if Obama if elected again.
flamo
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Sunday, July 1, 2012 8:53:07 PM
Originally Posted by: secret.squirrel 

The damned insurance companies are the ones who have really put us in this mess. I am a firm believer in that...

My wife was in the ER about a month ago for chest pains... They ran an EKG, found 'no problems' and prescribed her 10 Xanax for 'stress'... We just got the bill for 900 dollars, and in that bill were two charges for medications that were never administered nor delivered.

The breakdown was as follows:

$5.00 for for a container to take a urine sample
$161.00 for the EKG machine to run on her for 10 minutes.
$17.24 for a drug that was not administered or delivered.
$135.00 for a chemical that is listed as a serum (not administered or delivered)
$584.00 for 45 minutes in the ER...

A f*cking 900.00 ER bill for 45 minutes... Oh, and here were the doctors charges:
$321.00 for a 'moderate' ER visit
$20.00 for 'ECG 12 LEADS INTERPRETATION AND REPORT'...

Now I don't care who or what reasoning there is for this, but there is no excuse for 1200+ dollars for 45 minutes in the ER. NONE...

Especially when so far, I see 2 charges totalling almost 150 in drugs that were not administered. The 10 xanax we had to get at WalMart...

When my mom had to go in last November to have her colon and half of her lower intestine removed, the hospital sent her home with her 'dressings' and 'bandages' and gave her the information she needed to re-order the additional dressings... Her insurance company was billed over $500.00 for just the 'last set' of dressings - which took care of her for 3 days. $500.00 for gauze bandages... Then when she had to get her own, they were going to charge the insurance almost $1000.00 for the next sets - which would have lasted a week. She went online, and found the EXACT dressings, from the same manufacturer, and ordered a month's supply for $159 dollars shipped to her door. A month's supply... Now someone explain to me what the problem is here... Because I can't understand this at all... No wonder the insurance is so f*cking unaffordable... No wonder medical care is out of control... Because these companies have been allowed to run rampant for too long with nobody looking over their shoulder to protect the innocents from the greed... Now, that it is so far out of control that the government feels it has to get in the middle of it, and nobody likes that -- I don't care who you are -- but what else are we supposed to do? Just let it go like it is? In 5 more years, if you're not the 1%, you won't be able to afford *... I can't go to a doctor, because I don't have medical care -- I earn too much as a self-employed contractor to qualify for medical assistance, yet I pay taxes into the medicare and medicaid... But I don't make enough to keep food on my table and pay for healthcare... I tried to get to a doctor because I went through a spell this spring where I started having breathing and allergy problems to the point where it made me really sick... The doctor said they couldn't see me for two weeks, and if I didn't have atleast $150.00 when I walked in the door, not to bother making an appointment... And they were the cheap doctor...

Now you see why I am all for some form of government intervention. These people have been plagued by bullsh*t lawsuits, insurance companies, fraud, and all out greediness... To the point where people who f*cking work for a living can't afford to stay healthy enough to even make it to work... And those are the people who pay into this system of Medicaid and Medicare... But we're the ones who can't get any benefit from it... Instead, we get our wages garnished, and sued when we can't pay the bills...

Thanks...



Here is the simplest explanation is so simple and you don't see it. It is cost shifting plain and simple. If I don't pay that cost incurred is shifted to you, the one who can pay. 70% of people going to the ER should have seen a doctor or clinic. Most of those going to the ER pay nothing and many never a paid a dime into the system. You are paying for them, if you don't that ER will close. Who is paying for the HC of the 12 to 20 illegals here that never paid a dime into the system. There is your answer.

Should the govt intervene, YES. How?? If you can't pay the bill then you are run through everify. Non citizens are subject to deportation no matter your status. ( The employer then gets hit with the bill.) If you receive ANY govt assistance a $50 deduction will be made from you next benefit check (Same as Medicare) That is for starters. The mandates have to stop, nothing is free. Tort reform..you pay for lawyers to get rich and it doesn't flush bad doctors out of the system

Hope this helps you.


I'm there, Old, Tired, Broke and Henpecked
Benjibear
Sunday, July 1, 2012 9:04:24 PM
People are worried about the government taking away their rights but they are OK with insurance companies and healthcare providers running their life.
It is what you learn, after you know it all, that counts.
Bowler Roller
Sunday, July 1, 2012 9:54:55 PM
I've got another horror story: (OK 2)

An uninsured friend of mine had his lip torn off by a dog. He went to the EC and they gave him 2 shots, bandages, and a phone number of a surgeon, since they had none on staff capable of the job. He went to the surgeon and had it reattached.

When the bills came, the hospital charged him around $30,000 and the surgeon charged him about $500.

It's no wonder people don't pay their bills.

Then there is another friend who has $1100 deducted from his pension for insurance. He's paid out in excess of $100,000 since the last time they've paid a dime. He can't even cancel his insurance to put that $1100 a month toward the bills.

The government made the problem bigger, not smaller.
Every crowd has a silver lining - PT Barnum
flamo
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Sunday, July 1, 2012 10:11:12 PM
Originally Posted by: Benjibear 

People are worried about the government taking away their rights but they are OK with insurance companies and healthcare providers running their life.



Benji,

A little history for you. PM me your email and I will send you a couple charts I made. It shows every time the govt got involved costs went up. In the sixties almost all companies GAVE you good insurance. I can give a list of what my family went through and never paid a dime. As soon as the govt got their hands on Medicare the costs started to move up, then talk of Hillarycare, another boost. Medicare has never paid its fair share. Doctors can't survive on it. That is when the cost shifting began. To make up for the Medicare shortfalls that money is added to bills the insurance company pays. They raise the premiums to those with insurance. I don't have the data but one can follow it, it is well hidden, as illegals came here the costs rose even higher. They never kicked into the system but used the ER as a free clinic. Somebody had to make up that cost. Guess who? Every time the govt says what the insurance companies MUST provide, the costs go higher. We have limited or no Tort reform, where does that money come from? As a man 74 do I really need a prenancy benefit?

BHO is going to hire 16,000 IRS agents (Gestapo) for enforcement. The average cost per year per agent will run about $50,000. Do the math, how much is that per year? That is $800,000,000 every year for all eternity. That doesn't count support such as offices, cars, phones and what ever. How many $10,000 a year policies would that pay for? It is not in the 1.7 trillion HC budget so where does it come from? The Rich? Try middle class tax increases. Here is another DUH regulation. I fyou have a great policy you pay the IRS is going to tax you on it. If you have a policy better than the govt wants you too will have a lesser tax. Illegals (12 to 20 million strong cannot go into the program but they get ALL of the benifits. Where is the money coming from for that? Now don't you think more will come here just for FREE HC? Open your wallet wide...........
I'm there, Old, Tired, Broke and Henpecked
Benjibear
Monday, July 2, 2012 12:20:32 AM
I am not saying that the current health care law is the way to go. My point is that the government has basically handed over the controls to the health insurance companies. They are the only ones that are going to get ahead with this current law. They will continue to play with their smoke and mirrors to make their plans look the best, and we as consumers will not have a decent way to compare plans.

Illegals and lawsuit reform are two things that need to be addressed. The problem with the illegal problem is no politician wants to fix the entire problem. Lawsuit reform affects more than just healthcare and it comes down to how much in everyone life worth. Again no one wants to address it.

The problem could be rather simple but because of the politics behind it and the backroom deals that have been made, we have a very complex issue with a lot of information that may or may not be valuable. Sometimes you need to just start from scratch instead of trying to fix the problem.

To me, I don't see why our country can not have universal coverage. Where every procedure/treatment has set amount that makes the provider a fair profit but doesn't screw the consumer that does not have the right coverage. Where we collect a flat tax from everyone to cover it. It basically covers a catastrophic event in your ones life by setting a deductible based on your income level. To pay for these deductibles, create healthcare savings/credit accounts where you earn interest on your savings and need to pay interest for expenses. Try to make these encourage people to save money for their deductibles.
It is what you learn, after you know it all, that counts.
Soda Guy
Monday, July 2, 2012 7:55:25 AM

Benji

The only thing that keeps your ideas from being put to practical use is you didn't leave room for one thing.


GREED


That is what keeps your plan from working. Greed from providers, insurance companies and yes individuals that try and do beat the system