opie
  •  opie
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Sunday, November 30, 2003 3:37:29 AM
I just wanted to know what you all thought about a carnival workers union or a consortium. Not neccesarily a union in todays since but maybe a organization to protect human rights when it comes to the carnival. I think as employees we should be entitled to certain things such a a safe dry place to sleep, enough money to eat on and the ability to maintain a personal hygiene as much as can be expected in these mobile conditions. I know alot of you have that but i have been to shows that don't care about human rights or care whether you eat day to day. They figure something is keeping you there so why not abuse you. I have been on one of the finest shows ever,and ever they when put in situation wil revert back to lifestyle patterns of old. I won't mention the show but i will tell you that I was so mad that I didn't have a bunk to sleep in I quit the same day I started. No goodbyes or nothing, just headed home. So what do you all think about a organization that would put pressure on a show to treat you like a human being and not a servant?????
Scott
  •  Scott
  • 86.98% (Honored)
  • Operations Foreman
Sunday, November 30, 2003 4:11:35 AM
Personally, I'm against it. Not just a union for carnival workers, but UNIONS in gerneral. They are nothing more than a organized mob strong arming employers. I see them them on the news *ing and moaning becouse 35.00 per hour ( auto industry) isn't enough to raise their family on. I see them complain that I can't raise my family if you don't pay 100% of my medical insurance. People are greedy... Period. If you take a job with any company regardless of the type job you do... you take it based on the information the employer gave you at the start. They told you how much money they were willing to trade for your services ( what ever they are) what benifits were available ( if any, and the law doesnt mandate employers give benifits) and then you either accept the job, reject it, or re negotiate new terms.

Now having said all of the above, this does not release the employer from paying a fair wage, or offering benifits ( they are just not obligated by law to do it) It's smart on their part to be competitive in wages and benifits for employees. My father always taught me, you are only as good as the people you surround yourself with. Good emplyoees, and good managers go to where they are compensated for their skill levels. Good companies know their value and pay them for it. The rest is left to buy the time or skills of those with less to sell thus they are not as valuable.

A smart company will be middle of the road on wages and benifits. You don't want to be the guy at the top of the list pushing wages to all time highs and paying for benifits that are useless, and unnessasary but you don't want to be dragging up the rear either.

As for show personal, most have no training when it comes to money managment. They get a dollar they spend a dollar, and it's not always on food or shelter either. My help bums money from anyone and everyone to buy a sack of weed, a bottle of booze and will forego a nights meal to have one of these. Showowners have learned if you give them all their money up front it's spend it a few short hours so you give them a "draw" early in the day ( while they are at work) so they can eat a meal, then the rest at the end to do with as they please. They will more then likely be broke by day break. ( this isn't all empolyees but it is the majority)

There is an old saying that an empolyee does just enough work to keep from getting fired, while the empolyers pay just enough to keep them around. I think their's a whole lot of truth to this statement.

Getting back to the Union's in the work place ( regardless of industry) it's not an empolyers job to make you rich or to give you a raise, his only job is to give you a pay check and the right amount of money that YOU agreed to work for at the start.

oscar de grouch
Sunday, November 30, 2003 5:08:18 AM
I would have to agree with you on your point of view, I too have seen them forgo dinner to go to the bar later after work and then they wonder why they don't have anything. The carnival industry is the only place I know of other than the military (and I think that even then you have to pay for it) that supplies housing of some type. If you don't like what they provide for you BUY YOUR OWN its as simple as that. All I can say is that if you work hard and do your job right then you will get paid and treated right, the "it's not my job" attitude gets you no where and neither does the "booty-kissing" for actions speak louder than words. ~Katie
bigeli
  •  bigeli
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Sunday, November 30, 2003 6:06:55 AM
I think the concept is well meaning,but it wouldn't work in this industry for many reasons. Like "de grouch" just pointed out,there are lots of people who are not equiped to work hard and progress to a level where they can be relied upon day in day out.Then the substance abuse,the fact that it is mostly seasonal,the changes in routes every year,the gross is not consistant enough to support a full union of employees year in year out.Umm.... the turn over rate is high,and who would honestly want to take the risk . This business has always been a "self made" business in one way or another,you either forged your own way,was born into it,or married into it,or you work for it and get yours.Who you know can be half the battle,but no one's gonna give you nothin' out there if you don't earn it.
So, in a few years, if you're walking down a midway and see a Sixcat or a Swinger or a bucket, look around. You might recognize an old man with a smile on his face. Especially if he's saying, "Hey Buddy, can I ask ya?" -sixcat,circa. 2007
tubagent
Sunday, November 30, 2003 6:18:52 AM
hey here this is kinda funny. are crew tried to form a union this seasion.too strange what do yeah think with-it
2ndgencarnie
Sunday, November 30, 2003 8:10:06 AM
My guys always take what they call Union breaks, but all they consist of is dope smoking.
Bossman
Sunday, November 30, 2003 9:15:06 AM
In the 40's, several large shows had union contracts. But, it is hard to organize unorganized people. Carnival employees in most cases are one step above beening homeless and one step below slave labor. The truth hurts, be if people are willing to be treated that way, what can you do.
babyhughie
Sunday, November 30, 2003 9:25:21 AM
ok scott 35$$ an hour?I am from the motor city and my wife works for GM and she sure doesnt see 35$$ an hour
cny_chris
Sunday, November 30, 2003 2:46:41 PM
Tough thing to do given the nature of the business. As a union "organizes" the workers, the transient nature of the business would make this difficult. The "one week we're here, the next week we're there and the following week we're somewhere else" type of workplace makes it difficult to make the resources available, and almost impossible for the people to go to bat for the members to be able to effectively do anything.

Think about some of the bigger, multi-unit shows. One week a ride might be on Unit A, next week it might be on Unit B. The larger of an area the route covers, means that every time they cross a state line, the laws and rules change. Makes it rather difficult to help, even if the communication and resources are there.

Another point that no one has mentioned, and would work against the shows and the employees is the demands of a union local. As an example, one union local covers X County, and another union local covers Z County. A show based in X County with employees represented by the X county local has a date in Z County. The union local for Z County says, "You can come in and set up, but each ride has to have a member of our local on it". Now the carnival operator already has a full crew for each ride, that work well together -- everyone knows what they have to do. He's got a couple choices - 1) he can hire someone to work each ride from the local (and now has too much extra help on the payroll), 2) he can hire someone to work each ride from the local AND lay off one of his own guys on each ride, or 3) he can tell the local where to shove it, and face a picket line, which his own unionized employees might (and probably will) refuse to cross. Each one of these scenarios are bad for the biz in general.

Don't laugh and say that this will never happen, as it happens every day with the construction trades in the NY City metro area. Sometimes scenario #1 happens, with the "extra help" doing nothing but just being on the job. More often, scenario #2 happens. Usually scenario #3 doesn't happen (nobody wins).

There may be an interest in unionization out there in the biz, but I would venture to say that given the way things work, a unionized carnival lot would not be any better in the end than the same lot that is non-union.

That's just my two cents worth....
"A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step." - Lao-Tsu

"Faith is taking the first step, even when you don't see the whole staircase." - Martin Luther King Jr.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." - Robert F. Kennedy
Pinetar
  •  Pinetar
  • 87.34% (Honored)
  • Operations Foreman
Sunday, November 30, 2003 3:22:32 PM
Unionization of the midway would be it's death bed. Not enough revenue to support it. Better to find a show that has the amenities you are looking for directly. If you are accustomed to the LQ then you must seek it for now.
UserPostedImage
chuck
  •  chuck
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Sunday, November 30, 2003 3:59:04 PM
As Pinetar said, unions wouldn't work in this business. Only place in the amusement business have I seen union ride ops would be theme parks. At Disneyland and Universal Hollywood every one of our departments has a union.
chuck
  •  chuck
  • 62.8% (Friendly)
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Sunday, November 30, 2003 4:02:54 PM
Quote:

quote:


Originally posted by Scott

Personally, I'm against it. Not just a union for carnival workers, but UNIONS in gerneral. They are nothing more than a organized mob strong arming employers. I see them them on the news *ing and moaning becouse 35.00 per hour ( auto industry) isn't enough to raise their family on. I see them complain that I can't raise my family if you don't pay 100% of my medical insurance. People are greedy... Period. If you take a job with any company regardless of the type job you do... you take it based on the information the employer gave you at the start. They told you how much money they were willing to trade for your services ( what ever they are) what benifits were available ( if any, and the law doesnt mandate employers give benifits) and then you either accept the job, reject it, or re negotiate new terms.

Now having said all of the above, this does not release the employer from paying a fair wage, or offering benifits ( they are just not obligated by law to do it) It's smart on their part to be competitive in wages and benifits for employees. My father always taught me, you are only as good as the people you surround yourself with. Good emplyoees, and good managers go to where they are compensated for their skill levels. Good companies know their value and pay them for it. The rest is left to buy the time or skills of those with less to sell thus they are not as valuable.

A smart company will be middle of the road on wages and benifits. You don't want to be the guy at the top of the list pushing wages to all time highs and paying for benifits that are useless, and unnessasary but you don't want to be dragging up the rear either.

As for show personal, most have no training when it comes to money managment. They get a dollar they spend a dollar, and it's not always on food or shelter either. My help bums money from anyone and everyone to buy a sack of weed, a bottle of booze and will forego a nights meal to have one of these. Showowners have learned if you give them all their money up front it's spend it a few short hours so you give them a "draw" early in the day ( while they are at work) so they can eat a meal, then the rest at the end to do with as they please. They will more then likely be broke by day break. ( this isn't all empolyees but it is the majority)

There is an old saying that an empolyee does just enough work to keep from getting fired, while the empolyers pay just enough to keep them around. I think their's a whole lot of truth to this statement.

Getting back to the Union's in the work place ( regardless of industry) it's not an empolyers job to make you rich or to give you a raise, his only job is to give you a pay check and the right amount of money that YOU agreed to work for at the start.



Your missing the point on unions Scott. You say were mofia run? Yeah most unions are but, then again who do you think kept those greedy corporates inline for years.
squirrel
Sunday, November 30, 2003 4:30:26 PM
I'm not going to point any fingers but I will say this:

There have been some replies and messages posted in this thread that push the limit of PG-13 due to language. Don't forget about our Terms of Service/Acceptable Use Policy  when you post. We may have a bad words filter but that DOESN'T mean test it and see what you can get away with.

I suggest this thread get re-evaulated and people calm themselves before they post a reply that is just as bad as the message that made them mad.

Don't make me tell all what my crystal ball shows for the future of this thread if it doesn't LIGHTEN UP A LITTLE...
Scott
  •  Scott
  • 86.98% (Honored)
  • Operations Foreman
Sunday, November 30, 2003 4:37:09 PM
Quote:

quote:


Your missing the point on unions Scott. You say were mofia run? Yeah most unions are but, then again who do you think kept those greedy corporates inline for years.



I'm missing the point? You say " who kept those greedy corporations inline" define greedy, and two how did they keep them inline?

And don't miss understand me I'm not ****ed or angery, and I don't want this posting to turn into a blood bath, just a debate of opinions.. ok?
with-it
  •  with-it
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Wednesday, December 3, 2003 2:51:35 PM
I think I'll start a Union on my show. I'll just take out the Dues from the help and if they have a grievence the just have to file the proper paperwork and wait 90 to 180 days for processing for a reply. By then they would of said the hell with it or would of forgotton what they were *ing about anyway. Just Kidding........ Anyway, I am not a fan of Unions anyway. On one hand the do protect "workers rights" on the other hand the also protect some of the morons who do not deserve a good job by forcing the company to keep them.If any of you have ever seen the movie Armed and Dangerous there is a classic union scene in it" just shut-up and pay the ****in dues If you don't pay you don't work".