indianacarnie
Sunday, November 6, 2011 12:30:53 AM
You are correct, China and India both surpassed us in greenhouse gas emissions this year.
An end, even with terror, is better than terror without end. F.Neitzsche
Bowler Roller
Sunday, November 6, 2011 1:29:02 AM
You want to treat schools differently, because of their religion. The government is forbidden from doing that.

Religious or atheist indoctrination is still up to the parents. Nobody is having it forced on them.

Can you name a Satanist school? I don't have a number, but there are Islamic schools who are eligible for the voucher programs. Indiana has one, Florida has 9.

Our first public schools taught the Bible. Those schools often doubled as churches. The Holy Bible was our first textbook in this country. In fact, it's one of the biggest reasons we had schools: so kids would learn how to read it.

The longest used text book is the McGruffey reader. It sold 120 million copies while in use between 1836 and 1960. These books were heavily Calvinist.It is still in use in private and home schools. 106 of the first 108 colleges in America were Christian.

It wasn't until after the Civil War that anyone tried to forbid tax money go to teach religion. In 1875, we tried to amend the constitution to do just that, but failed. Some states adopted it into theirs, some didn't.

School vouchers do not force anything on you, or anyone else. Get over it.
Every crowd has a silver lining - PT Barnum
indianacarnie
Sunday, November 6, 2011 9:43:42 AM
As I've stated many times,if anybodies belief system can be changed by comments made on any thread anywhere then their belief is not very deeply held. I know that I belong to a (very large and growing) minority when it comes to "religious" thought. (We are 16-18% of Americans. Our largest minority by the way)

I will never "get over" what I see as a wrong being done, period. And because of the 1st amendment I can speak my mind about the wrongs I perceive, that very same 1st amendment gives you the right to rebuttal.

Having said that I must say that I can't for the life of me understand how otherwise rational people can be christian. Religion per se I have no problem with, ANY religion.Whatever helps you to get through the day is fine with me. Its when I have to pay for (in any form) YOUR beliefs and have to live under YOUR restrictions that I start to get .... restless.

The "Satanist" school was said as an illustrative thought and I cannot believe you're so obtuse as to not know that.

The United States has went through many (at least 4) major religious revivals (awakenings to the faithful) in our history. All of them were accompanied by restrictive laws/thoughts imposed on our population as a whole. Each time sanity prevailed in the end. We are in one of these cycles right now.Some people will always need a crutch be it religion,alcohol,drugs or sex. All these things excite the same areas of the brain. I myself went through many years of drug dependence. I didn't need a god or higher power to get myself under control and clean contrary to A.A./N.A.and most if not all of the churches,(yes I tried both and in the end just had a good look at myself and didn't like what I saw , so changed)

McGuffey readers were indeed one of the only real textbooks and did indeed have religious content. I have an 1889 edition in almost mint condition among the books in my library,which is one of my prized possessions. Yes it is still used by some home schooler's and by some of the more fundamentalist christian schools.(Precisely because of the religious content)Do I want my granddaughters being taught from a book written in the early 1900's? No I don't!

And yes, school vouchers force me to support religious teaching when they are used to support religious schools, how can you deny that?

I'll close this with another quote or two from the framers of our constitution:

Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."


James Madison (Called the father of the Constitution)

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

Benjamin Franklin

From his Autobiography (chapter 6):
"Some books against Deism fell into my hands¼It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

Here's a couple from other patriots and political leaders:

Ethan Allen

He openly declared himself a deist. When Allen stated that he did not believe in the Christian doctrine of original sin he was told that without original sin there is no need for Christianity. After reflection Allen agreed, there is no need for Christianity, he reasoned.

Abraham Lincoln

William Herndon (Lincoln's law partner and biographer):
Lincoln was not a Christian in any sense other than that he lived a good life and was a noble man.

He was an Agnostic generally, sometimes an Atheist.

Mr. Lincoln never mentioned the name of Christ in his letters and speeches as a Christian. I have searched for such evidence, but could not find it. I have had others search, but they could not find it. This dead silence on the part of Mr. Lincoln is overwhelming proof that he was an unbeliever.

When you put these men against the Pat Robertson's,Oral Robert's,Ted Haggard's,Jim Swaggart's,W.V.Grant's ... the list goes on and on and .....of the world, I think I'll stick with Jefferson,Madison and Franklin.


An end, even with terror, is better than terror without end. F.Neitzsche
Benjibear
Sunday, November 6, 2011 10:57:50 AM
Once you start designating school taxes as "my taxes" to spend how I want, it will be a very slippery slope. Does that mean anything I don't use or don't want, I can ask the government for a voucher to use towards something else. No. Taxes are too be spent for the good of everyone. I am not going to get into details on this here.

As far as schools, private schools are getting some funding from the government. At least from my experience in PA, private school students get transportation, books (except religious books), special ed support, school nurse, and probably other things from the the state/local school district. If there are vouchers given to students in private schools, all of this support needs to be eliminated and it is up to the school to provide for the needs of their students.

Next, the one reason private schools do so well, is parental involvement. This is one of the factors that affects a child's education. When a parent makes a choice to send a child to a private school, it takes extra effort and sacrifice to do so. Parents that don't care will still have children that do not perform weather they are in public, charter, or private schools. Taking the good kids out of public schools will just make performance there decline. Parents, especially in low income welfare areas, are the biggest problem with public education. Overall, it is not teachers, which everyone is blaming these days.

The value of the vouchers can not be the average price of the per pupil that a district spends. There are certain fixed costs that will remain. Taking a handfull of students out of a public school will not reduce these fixed costs and the savings on the public school will be very small.

I would be willing compromise with a small voucher program to help reduce the parent's out of pocket expenses. However, the bulk of the expense needs to be on the parent making the choice.


It is what you learn, after you know it all, that counts.
Bowler Roller
Sunday, November 6, 2011 11:42:50 AM
I didn't tell you to shut up, I told you to deal with reality.

Even rational people need something to believe in.

Everybody has to live under societies restrictions, no matter their religion, or pay the price. This would be true in a world without religion.

Quote:

Do I want my granddaughters being taught from a book written in the early 1900's? No I don't!



Then don't use it to teach them. Problem solved!

Your quotes are meaningless, especially with all the Founder misquoting that goes on. This is not a discussion about our Founders religion, and even if it was, there are other quotes from them that tell a different story.

Jefferson also wrote on the cover of his Bible, "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

“But the greatest of all the reformers of the depraved religion of His own country, was Jesus of Nazareth.”

He used funds to build a church and, by treaty, paid a priest to convert Kaskaskia Indians.

Lincoln also said "That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrepect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular."

Here he is quoting scripture in a speech "He (Frederick Douglass) says I have a proneness for quoting scripture. If I should do so now, it occurs that perhaps he places himself somewhat upon the ground of the parable of the lost sheep which went astray upon the mountains, and when the owner of the hundred sheep found the one that was lost, and threw it upon his shoulders, and came home rejoicing, it was said that there was more rejoicing over the one sheep that was lost and had been found, than over the ninety and nine in the fold. [Great cheering, renewed cheering.] The application is made by the Saviour in this parable, thus, "Verily I say unto you, there is more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, than over ninety and nine just persons that need no repentence. [Cheering.] And now, if the Judge claims the benefit of his parable, let him repent. Let him not come up here and say: I am the only just person; and you are the ninety-nine sinners! Repentence, before forgiveness is a provision of the Christian system, and on that condition alone will the Republicans grant his forgiveness."

In his inaugural speech he said "Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him, who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty."

Tell me, are you also opposed to people taking a deduction for charitable donations?






Every crowd has a silver lining - PT Barnum