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Ok we had some awesome debate about this subject, but i'd also said consortium, which is more towards what I see as a need for the industry. Like OSHA in the construction business. I group that makes random checks to see that carnival employees are properly housed and have the ability to take a shower. Say for instance a carnival workers bill of rights. Recognized by OABA and other amusements organizations and acknoledged by the show owners and operators. And possibly a organization to enforce these rules by fines or concessions. This would keep the shows in check as their could be grievances etc. Thats what I'm looking for protection of rights not guarentee of wages. Thanks for all the input.
Thanks for the reminder guys. Got to mail my ballot for our local election. Let's see... which set of criminals should my $60 bucks a month help to support.[B)]



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I think I'll start a Union on my show. I'll just take out the Dues from the help and if they have a grievence the just have to file the proper paperwork and wait 90 to 180 days for processing for a reply. By then they would of said the hell with it or would of forgotton what they were *ing about anyway. Just Kidding........ Anyway, I am not a fan of Unions anyway. On one hand the do protect "workers rights" on the other hand the also protect some of the morons who do not deserve a good job by forcing the company to keep them.If any of you have ever seen the movie Armed and Dangerous there is a classic union scene in it" just shut-up and pay the ****in dues If you don't pay you don't work".
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Your missing the point on unions Scott. You say were mofia run? Yeah most unions are but, then again who do you think kept those greedy corporates inline for years.



I'm missing the point? You say " who kept those greedy corporations inline" define greedy, and two how did they keep them inline?

And don't miss understand me I'm not ****ed or angery, and I don't want this posting to turn into a blood bath, just a debate of opinions.. ok?
I'm not going to point any fingers but I will say this:

There have been some replies and messages posted in this thread that push the limit of PG-13 due to language. Don't forget about our Terms of Service/Acceptable Use Policy  when you post. We may have a bad words filter but that DOESN'T mean test it and see what you can get away with.

I suggest this thread get re-evaulated and people calm themselves before they post a reply that is just as bad as the message that made them mad.

Don't make me tell all what my crystal ball shows for the future of this thread if it doesn't LIGHTEN UP A LITTLE...
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Originally posted by Scott

Personally, I'm against it. Not just a union for carnival workers, but UNIONS in gerneral. They are nothing more than a organized mob strong arming employers. I see them them on the news *ing and moaning becouse 35.00 per hour ( auto industry) isn't enough to raise their family on. I see them complain that I can't raise my family if you don't pay 100% of my medical insurance. People are greedy... Period. If you take a job with any company regardless of the type job you do... you take it based on the information the employer gave you at the start. They told you how much money they were willing to trade for your services ( what ever they are) what benifits were available ( if any, and the law doesnt mandate employers give benifits) and then you either accept the job, reject it, or re negotiate new terms.

Now having said all of the above, this does not release the employer from paying a fair wage, or offering benifits ( they are just not obligated by law to do it) It's smart on their part to be competitive in wages and benifits for employees. My father always taught me, you are only as good as the people you surround yourself with. Good emplyoees, and good managers go to where they are compensated for their skill levels. Good companies know their value and pay them for it. The rest is left to buy the time or skills of those with less to sell thus they are not as valuable.

A smart company will be middle of the road on wages and benifits. You don't want to be the guy at the top of the list pushing wages to all time highs and paying for benifits that are useless, and unnessasary but you don't want to be dragging up the rear either.

As for show personal, most have no training when it comes to money managment. They get a dollar they spend a dollar, and it's not always on food or shelter either. My help bums money from anyone and everyone to buy a sack of weed, a bottle of booze and will forego a nights meal to have one of these. Showowners have learned if you give them all their money up front it's spend it a few short hours so you give them a "draw" early in the day ( while they are at work) so they can eat a meal, then the rest at the end to do with as they please. They will more then likely be broke by day break. ( this isn't all empolyees but it is the majority)

There is an old saying that an empolyee does just enough work to keep from getting fired, while the empolyers pay just enough to keep them around. I think their's a whole lot of truth to this statement.

Getting back to the Union's in the work place ( regardless of industry) it's not an empolyers job to make you rich or to give you a raise, his only job is to give you a pay check and the right amount of money that YOU agreed to work for at the start.



Your missing the point on unions Scott. You say were mofia run? Yeah most unions are but, then again who do you think kept those greedy corporates inline for years.
As Pinetar said, unions wouldn't work in this business. Only place in the amusement business have I seen union ride ops would be theme parks. At Disneyland and Universal Hollywood every one of our departments has a union.
Unionization of the midway would be it's death bed. Not enough revenue to support it. Better to find a show that has the amenities you are looking for directly. If you are accustomed to the LQ then you must seek it for now.
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Tough thing to do given the nature of the business. As a union "organizes" the workers, the transient nature of the business would make this difficult. The "one week we're here, the next week we're there and the following week we're somewhere else" type of workplace makes it difficult to make the resources available, and almost impossible for the people to go to bat for the members to be able to effectively do anything.

Think about some of the bigger, multi-unit shows. One week a ride might be on Unit A, next week it might be on Unit B. The larger of an area the route covers, means that every time they cross a state line, the laws and rules change. Makes it rather difficult to help, even if the communication and resources are there.

Another point that no one has mentioned, and would work against the shows and the employees is the demands of a union local. As an example, one union local covers X County, and another union local covers Z County. A show based in X County with employees represented by the X county local has a date in Z County. The union local for Z County says, "You can come in and set up, but each ride has to have a member of our local on it". Now the carnival operator already has a full crew for each ride, that work well together -- everyone knows what they have to do. He's got a couple choices - 1) he can hire someone to work each ride from the local (and now has too much extra help on the payroll), 2) he can hire someone to work each ride from the local AND lay off one of his own guys on each ride, or 3) he can tell the local where to shove it, and face a picket line, which his own unionized employees might (and probably will) refuse to cross. Each one of these scenarios are bad for the biz in general.

Don't laugh and say that this will never happen, as it happens every day with the construction trades in the NY City metro area. Sometimes scenario #1 happens, with the "extra help" doing nothing but just being on the job. More often, scenario #2 happens. Usually scenario #3 doesn't happen (nobody wins).

There may be an interest in unionization out there in the biz, but I would venture to say that given the way things work, a unionized carnival lot would not be any better in the end than the same lot that is non-union.

That's just my two cents worth....
"A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step." - Lao-Tsu

"Faith is taking the first step, even when you don't see the whole staircase." - Martin Luther King Jr.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." - Robert F. Kennedy
ok scott 35$$ an hour?I am from the motor city and my wife works for GM and she sure doesnt see 35$$ an hour